we're all so sick of waiting

[reflectedeve]

I, um. Huh.

I don't really know what to think? I mean, I miss Joss' shows, all three of them, and Eliza Dushku played my favorite role out of all of 'em. I've missed her. My first reaction was Joss + Eliza = SQUEE!

Not sure what I think about the concept, though. After all my irritation with bad female characterization . . . Dushku's character in "Dollhouse" sounds dangerously like a woman with no personality. Maybe that would interest me if that didn't happen to a lot of female genre characters anyway, all the time; having an excuse for it wouldn't make it fresh, wouldn't make it any less frustrating.

I couldn't stomach a show that plays with a female character as, well, a doll, with that as its nifty psychological appeal. I'm sure the show will be about how horrible it is to play with people as dolls; but frankly, at this point? That's not enough. I wouldn't want a "dark" show like that right now, without the catharsis of seeing the woman break free of dollhood. If the show aims at giving Echo agency, as well as messing with the nature of identity, that could be great. Maybe. Otherwise, it'd just be too damn depressing, too metaphorically close to home.

The trouble is, it's been awhile since I really trusted Joss to do a good job with problematic subject matter. Buffy gets hailed as a great feminist success, but it had a lot of problems, and this one doesn't sound like any sort of guaranteed improvement. (People talk about Joss writing great female characters, but all I have to do is think about Fred from Angel, and I'm really worried.)

sometimes she will be completely elegant, completely naive, completely helpless.
Is it me, or are there alarm bells ringing somewhere?

I guess I'll just have to see. I wish he'd drop some of his comic commitments, anyway, because gods know he's pretty much proved himself incapable of juggling too many projects at once.

I hope I'm just being paranoid and jaded, and that this show will turn out to be filled with squee after all. (Would you believe me if I said that I still consider myself to be a Joss Whedon fan? I mean, I watch/read/at least partly enjoy just about everything he works on. I dunno.)

Comments

[sweetvalleyslut.livejournal.com]

Well, remember that even if Joss created Fred, which I'm not sure of, he wasn't the one responsible for her development--that was Minear and Greenwalt.

I'm sure he'd be planning on giving the character agency at some point, but since this is a Joss show on FOX (*what* is he *thinking???*) it probably won't be around long enough for us to see that.

[reflectedeve.livejournal.com]

True, but it's hard not to associate all the characters from his shows with Joss . . . and Minear's gonna be in on this one too. I don't know, I am just lacking in trust.

Urgh, fair point.

[prozacpark.livejournal.com]

Tim Minear is kind of the only reason I'm trusting this show. So far, he has taken three concepts that I would have never even watched an episode of and turned them all into TV shows I'm deeply in love with.

And Tim Minear was the one who almost left the show because he felt strongly that if Angel and Cordelia got together, it would ruin the show. And that did lead to the show sucking and Cordelia's character being completely revised. :)

I'm also pretty sure that Joss has a deep, deep obsession with all his Mary Sues, and Fred has Joss written all over her, IMO.

[firstfaerie.livejournal.com]

S'funny, I was just thinking about Joss in the context of women-on-tv - lots of ranting over on Alex's journal about Heroes, which I don't watch, but since when has that stopped me from pronouncing judgement?

Anyway.

It occurred to me on the bus the other day, while I was mulling over why everyone seems to hate Bionic Woman so much (I missed this week, but I've been very into it), that Joss really.. ISN'T the master of female characterisation. I'll give you one freebie - I'll give you Zoe from Firefly as a big step outside the box. (Actually, the women of Firefly were pretty damned good, even if a lot of that fell apart - along with a lot of other things - in Serenity.) Anyway, when I think back on days of Buffy and Angel, all I can think about is how all the women of Buffy became about lust, eventually, and all the women of Angel became about how you can't trust women.

And I agree with sweetvalley up there - you will have the chance to examine closely, judge harshly, and then watch for cancellation.

I do think it's fun from a creator point of view - I can appreciate the director/writer/actor sheer glee of saying "Oooh! And we can do something different EVERY EPISODE!" because that's a creative challenge that doesn't come around too often. So I really empathise there - especially as someone who gets a lot of ideas for plays based on "Oh, I've seen your work, and you would be so good at this role if only someone would write it for you!"

But I'm right there with you, quietly chewing nails.

[reflectedeve.livejournal.com]

Heh. I don't hate Bionic Woman, though that's mostly because I'm enjoying Katee Sackhoff's role so much. I mean sure, I have major issues with it--there's some ranting about that here (http://ave-eva.livejournal.com/15026.html)--but if Sarah Corvis sticks around, I probably will too.

Well, to give him his due, Joss actually ran shows with lots of female characters . . . which shouldn't be revolutionary, but kind of is, particularly for genre shows. And I enjoyed many of them, particularly towards the beginning of his shows. Though I agree that the quality of his female characters (and the shows in general) deteriorated immensely towards the last few seasons of Buffy and Angel.

Oh, I think Joss'll have a ball with it. It's wacky, experimental, and stars a vulnerable-yet-kickass girl (not so much a woman, I'm thinking).

But I'm right there with you, quietly chewing nails.
Good to have some company, anyway. ^^ I'm certainly interested to see how this goes.

[prozacpark.livejournal.com]

I'm also disturbed by the concept, but because Tim Minear is involved, I can get behind it. Minear did wondrous things with developing a woman with seemingly no personality on "The Inside" to a character who has become one of my favorite characters in fiction. But she did have agency despite having no real sense of an identity, unlike Echo.

What really disturbs me about the description was that she's described as 'childlike.' I'm just really annoyed by all these female characters who are supposed to be appealing for their innocence because I think that our culture places way too much importance on women staying childlike (and thus more controlable/desirable, and that just leads to creepy places).

I'm very fond of River, but I don't think I would be very happy with her as a protagonist because she's portrayed as childish, and I kind of like my women to have a sense of agency, as you said. And this character seems very Riverish to me, so you know Joss will Mary Sue her up and I kind of fear that. I'm just hoping that this show will end up having more than just one protagonist and will add some more female characters.

Also, outside of the feminist issues, I'm wondering how we're supposed to get attached to a character who is going to have a new personality every week?

[reflectedeve.livejournal.com]

What really disturbs me about the description was that she's described as 'childlike.'
A great big WORD to this whole paragraph. *shudder*

And this character seems very Riverish to me, so you know Joss will Mary Sue her up and I kind of fear that.
Oh, exactly. I really enjoy River in the show, but in Serenity she got so Sueish . . . if that had gone on even a little longer (in another movie or more show) I would have started to hate her.

ow we're supposed to get attached to a character who is going to have a new personality every week?
Yeah, there's that, too. It's a bit similar to the problem I had getting into Heroes . . . the characters were all so isolated, they mostly didn't relate to each other, and it was hard to get attached to them. I can see how it might be a great playground for Joss as creator (as firstfaerie notes above), but as a viewer, I suspect it'll be frustrating.